ST. GEORGE – A fundraiser held Saturday for the Snow Canyon Lady Warriors rugby team has drawn attention for holding a gun drawing to raise money for the team to go to a national tournament in Wisconsin. As the fundraiser connected firearms with a school club, one St. George citizen raised a voice of concern.
Since the massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary in December, any connection between schools and guns has become a touchy subject, especially as the war for stricter gun control wages on.
Situated along Sunset Boulevard at the time, a sign let passersby know they could enter a drawing to win either a shotgun or rifle for $50. When Dorothy Engelman came across the gun drawing, she said she was quite upset over the matter. She said guns were on display along with baked goods.
“We’re selling cupcakes and guns to raise money for our kids?” Engelman said.
In the wake of tragedies involving firearms, Engelman said the drawing was “an error in judgment” and “insensitive.”
Disturbed by the drawing, Engelman proceeded to contact Snow Canyon High School and media outlets.
Rugby itself is not an officially recognized high school-sanctioned sport like basketball or baseball. Rather, in Snow Canyon’s case, it operates as a club and has a higher level of autonomy than regular high school sports do.
Snow Canyon High School Principal Warren Brooks said an example of the autonomy the rugby club/team exercises can be seen in the fact it has the opportunity to go to a national, out-of-state tournament. Regular high school teams will primarily stay within the state and may go to Las Veges, he said.
“It’s neat for the kids because they can go to nationals,” Brooks said. However, because the club/team and the high school share the same name, Brooks doesn’t want the public to think the school endorsed anything involving guns.
“We want to be supportive of all students,” he said, “but this just put a negative light on things.”
Brooks said the school was aware of the fundraiser, but knew nothing about the gun drawing. Once the school learned about it the fundraiser was shut down.
Brooks said discipline would be applied to the rugby club, but declined to comment directly on the matter.
Cathy Hasfurther, head coach for the team, was also unaware a gun drawing was being held in conjunction with the fundraiser, as the event was overseen by the parents of the rugby players.
“It was 100 percent parent-organized,” she said.
While Brooks said the club may face some form of discipline from the school, Michael Cressler, president of Utah Youth Rugby, the state-level league the Snow Canyon team is affiliated with, said unless local laws have been broken somehow, discipline from the league is unlikely.
While the Snow Canyon Lady Warriors team has to abide by the league’s rules and guidelines, Cressler said it “does not have to monitor or approve” what the various teams do in their fundraisers.
“Unless it involves drugs, alcohol, or pornography,” he said, “we do not prohibit (what the teams do).”
However, if one of the teams violated the league’s rules, Cressler said they could be sanctioned somehow or prohibited from playing.
Still, no one in the league is advocating for guns or gun control in any way, Dressler said.
Each team is also an independent entity unto itself. If anyone, like a coach, were to be disciplined for any form of misconduct not governed by the league’s rules, Dressler said, it would likely be handled by the governing bodies of those club/teams and not passed down from the state level.
As for the commotion caused by the gun drawing, Dressler said: “This is a new one.”
All rugby couches within the state-side organization are also volunteers, he said.
“I’m not paid,” Hasfurther said. She also said her assistant coaches were also volunteers.
If Hasfurther were to face any kind of discipline over the gun drawing at the parent-organized fundraiser, Engelman said the she felt it would be “an extreme reaction” if the head coach happened to be removed.
Despite the commotion caused by the gun drawing, Brooks said, “the rugby team is a fantastic club … They do strive for excellence.”
The Snow Canyon Lady Warriors team isn’t the first in Utah to be objected to due to a gun drawing. Earlier this month, the Uintah Utes youth hockey team in Vernal received a last-minute invite to nationals, and in order to help raise the needed funds for the trip, a raffle was held for an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle.
The AR-15 is one of the firearms reportedly used by Adam Lanza during the Sandy Hook massacre and has since been demonized along with other so-called assault weapons.
Despite a protest from a Uintah High School graduate, the raffle carried on and raised about $5,000, according to KSL.com.
“I don’t think I made an error in judgment,” Engelman said of her decision to address the gun drawing in St. George. “(The gun drawing) was an error in judgment.”
Ed. note: Dorothy Engelman is the chair of the Washington County Democratic Party. In this matter, she expressly said that she was speaking as a private citizen not as a representative of the party. (Added for clarification April 30, 2013.)
Email: m[email protected]
Twitter: @MoriKessler
Copyright St. George News, SaintGeorgeUtah.com LLC, 2013, all rights reserved.
Of course Dorothy “contacted media outlets” as she has issues with everythiing that goes on in this Counthy and loves the attention the media give her – managing to get “published” daily; way too often in my opinion. Maybe she could just not purchase a raffle ticket and leave it alone.
im glad she contacted the media. I know this doesn’t make sense to you but those CHILDREN were selling guns on the street. Do you remember that kid who put a air gun to his head and pulled the trigger at Dixie High School a few years ago? No? Well he died from that injury so look it up. Dorothy was only concerned for those kids. She gets mentioned a lot because she is one of the few people around here that has enough common sense to realize the stupid things people do around here and try to correct them before something bad happens. Something similar to what happened to that high school kid I mentioned earlier.
Actually that was at Desert Hills High School. Look it up.
The incident you refer to was a gun loaded with blank cartridges to be used in a play at Desert Hills High School. Terribly sad situation, but selling raffle tickets in which you may win a gun is hardly in the same category as a student being killed by misusing a firearm. As per the US Constitution we have the right to bear arms, guns are not BAD. BAD people choose to do bad things – with guns, pressure cookers, or anything else they can use to create mayhem. Ridiculous that this is even news, if you don’t want to win the gun, don’t purchase a ticket.
It was a real gun! What retard parent would let their kid take a real gun to school?
Aside from the stupidity of a parent to allow a child to take a real gun to school, it is also illegal for a minor to be in possession of a hand gun without adult supervision.
FAIL!
So who designated Engelman to be the one to “correct” what you term as “bad”? I don’t see Engelman down at the state alcohol store “correcting” what is bad for the community. And you should really do research on what you write about. The gun used in the tragic high school shooting was a real gun that was loaded with blanks. Not an “air gun” Democrat airhead. Maybe Engelman would like to take her “correcting” on the road and correct the teens texting and driving.
Ever think the Raffle was illegal per Utah State Laws?
Duh de dum dum….
NO. These children were not selling guns on the street. They were selling raffle tickets. I hope you know the difference.
This is dumb. They should go through with the raffle. I am concerned that dumb residents who have no clue about things are able to gum up the works with their “concerns.”
My question is, if a complaint from 1 person was enough pressure to get the principal to shut it down, will complaints from 10 of us pressure him to allow it to start back up?
I stopped at this bake sale/ gun raffle. No problem with the gun raffle other than 50 bucks a ticket? What a crock! If they would have sold tickets for 10 or 20 even, they would have sold a lot more tickets.
Snow Canyon High School Principal Warren Brooks needs to be fired for shutting down the gun raffle.
Maybe just some nebulous forthcoming “discipline” would suffice! 🙂 He should take a stand and get on the right side of this issue and stop pandering to what he’s afraid could be said by the state legislature…
Yeah, and that principal should then be fired for allowing an illegal activity for a school function. Then he could spend some time in jail. Real smart…. NOT!
Is it even legal to shut down this gun raffle? Or does legal have no meaning anymore?
It’s not legal to hold a raffle in the State of Utah. It is considered gambling. So somehow I don’t think shutting one down would be illegal now, would it.
A raffle is NOT illegal in Utah as long as tickets are made available for free if requested. Most raffles will have small print about free tickets then make the requester jump through hoops to get the free ticket.
Sounds to me like the Head Coach (who is an innocent bystander) and Cressler are the only ones in this whole mess who have their head on straight. We need to stop letting a tiny minority of Americans alienate the general public from guns (which, despite others’ agendas, are not and never will be killers). The people who improperly wield these instruments are the ones we need to be upset about, not the instruments themselves. Engelman needed to be told to mind her own business. If she’d organized the fundraiser, then she could’ve done whatever she wanted. This is ridiculous. The only thing I’m upset about is that I didn’t know about this in time, so I could’ve submitted my $50 dollars for a chance to win a shotgun… Sad.
Actually the mindset about guns in Utah is, Nationally, that of a minority. Have any concept of the real world outside of St George?
im glad she contacted the media. I know this doesn’t make sense to you but those CHILDREN were selling guns on the street. Do you remember that kid who put a air gun to his head and pulled the trigger at Dixie High School a few years ago? No? Well he died from that injury so look it up. Dorothy was only concerned for those kids. She gets mentioned a lot because she is one of the few people around here that has enough common sense to realize the stupid things people do around here and try to correct them before something bad happens. Something similar to what happened to that high school kid I mentioned earlier.
How many times are you going to post the same stupid comment? Don’t you think that once is enough?
Amen!
Not only was it stupid for the parents to let that student take a real gun to school, it was illegal for the student to be in possession of a hand gun without adult supervision. That student’s death accentuates the purpose of such laws.
I really don’t know what to say, I bet this looser is for taking pressure cookers off the shelf too, Brooks is a coward. This PC crap is going to be the end of this Country. The gun still wouldn’t have been just handed over to the winner, without going through a gun dealer, what should they raffle off a head of goat cheese? You raffle off what sales tickets, you MORONS!
I know it is a little lengthy but hope you all will read my commentary on this incident, at http://www.conservativedailynews.com/2013/04/more-hacking-at-the-roots/.
Here is the content if you don’t want to link over to it.
It is difficult to assure accuracy in an incident without knowing all the facts. However, knowing all the facts is also nearly impossible. Thus, mouth-all-mighty people like me offer opinions based on the information they have available. As more information becomes available opinions shifts.
Now, I come to target of this monologue.
This past weekend the Snow Canyon Lady Warriors rugby team in St. George, Utah conducted an event to raise money to assist them in traveling to a national competition, out of state. A passerby decided to choose to be offended by the event. “This is a highly inappropriate way for a team to raise money, no matter how desperately it’s needed.”
What was the egregious event? A bake sale combined with a raffle for shotgun. In this lady’s mind the raffle equated to insensitivity to recent tragic events across the nation that have cost people their lives. Insensitivity to mayhem raises the eyebrow of any rational person.
Yet, with full sensitivity to those events, I asked the question, “What made this women chief of the appropriateness police?” Where does she deem she has authority delegated to her by society to decide what is or is not appropriate…beyond her own self-appointed superiority complex? Yes, I know that sounds harsh. It was intended to sound harsh. Because those who would lord themselves over others will learn by no other means than directness.
This woman of course ran to the school officials bawling that she was too weak to view opinions opposed to her own. In response the equally weakling principal jumped to confusions about his role. According to the newspaper article he is placing the coach in jeopardy of her job. Why? Because he too believes it is somehow his role to declare to the community what moral offenses (as his opinion dictates) can or cannot be committed. He has assigned himself, by merit of a simple administrative bureaucrat role, as the chief of moral values for the community. How absolutely presumptuous. Perhaps rather than dismissing the coach, for allowing her team to conduct a legal activity, it should be the principal that is fired for being a clear and present danger to the liberties of the community.
We live in a society that is sacrificing itself upon the alter self-importance. Somehow, a preponderance of members of our society have come to the conclusion that their choice to be offended is more precious than another person’s right to liberty. Another way of stating that is “My desires are more relevant than your rights”. Or, yet, even more succinctly “My liberty to have control over you exceeds your liberty to have control over yourself.”
Such presumptuousness is evil at its core.
We have, in the name of the awful doctrine of psychological self-awareness, attempted to build a moral fabric of society upon a foundation of “feelings” rather than conduct. Said a woman and a principal of questionable principles “we are entitled to pretend that our opinions deserve the same protection as does violation of your liberty.”
Further, we have fallen victims to the age old fallacy that “when they are learned, they think they are wise.” We were warned and forewarned against such foolish assumptions…by men far wiser than most of us.
Now, for the record, I despise the use of guns. I equally despise the acts of violence which so easily men engage in to enforce their power-over others. The use of guns in place of reason is an insult to the dignity of mankind. I make no distinction as to why, what brand, what caliber a gun is. I despise the lot of them. Yet, having said that, I know how to use many of them. And, because some reactionary people, such as those who take offense at the liberty of others or seek to exercise control over them by mere titles, it becomes necessary for some of us to keep and bear arms.
The US Constitution assured that right to bear arms after diligent and thoughtful discourse among men of reason and principle. I have yet to meet or hear of any person in my lifetime with greater wisdom and inspiration than them. But, it is not just their wisdom we can honor. It was the reasonable understanding and logic of the entire nation of people that embraced that right to bear arms to whom we ought to look to fashion our own wisdom.
The assault on a group of girls by a zealot, supported by a potentate, is possibly far more egregious, to all, than the girl’s offense of being nothing more than a group of carnival barkers crying “Come one and all. Step right up. Try your chance at winning a symbol of your liberty.”
This woman of course ran to the school officials bawling that she was too weak to view opinions opposed to her own. In response the equally weakling principal jumped to confusions about his role. According to the newspaper article he is placing the coach in jeopardy of her job. Why? Because he too believes it is somehow his role to declare to the community what moral offenses (as his opinion dictates) can or cannot be committed. He has assigned himself, by merit of a simple administrative bureaucrat role, as the chief of moral values for the community. How absolutely presumptuous. Perhaps rather than dismissing the coach, for allowing her team to conduct a legal activity, it should be the principal that is fired for being a clear and present danger to the liberties of the community.
We live in a society that is sacrificing itself upon the alter self-importance. Somehow, a preponderance of members of our society have come to the conclusion that their choice to be offended is more precious than another person’s right to liberty. Another way of stating that is “My desires are more relevant than your rights”. Or, yet, even more succinctly “My liberty to have control over you exceeds your liberty to have control over yourself.”
Thank William, that perfectly captures my feelings about this whole incident!
Leave it to some dip … to come along and cry about a gun auction. Why doesn’t this lame woman get off her pathetic butt and bake some cookies, or go help the girls raise some money to make the trip.
Why didn’t the parents just move the raffle off site and continue and let this nit wit woman run around crying to whoever would listen to her pathetic whining.
Ask Sportsmans to raffle it and donate the money to the girls. Just some old biddy with nothing better to do, and trying to keep the young girls from enjoying their trip….. why doesn’t she find a life…… Oh, wait, she can’t… when she driving around trying to ruin every one elses.
Ed. ellipsis
This lame broad is used to sticking her nose in everyone’s business. AND she is the Chair of the Washington Democrat Potty. er Party.
She does NOT have the time to “bake cookies.” That would take too much time from her self-righteous quest to keep her name in the media.
Yes, she should have reported it to authorities and requested arrests for an illegal sale. Why should the school be allowed to break the law (a Utah law created by your Republican representatives)?
Oh Dorothy click your heels and go back to your fantasy land of Oz. When I read this article I was shocked that they would shut the fundraiser down, but not surprised Dorothy had something to do with it. Why is she always going around trying to push people around to suit her own agenda? This is America, and if someone wants to sell a gun to help raise money who’s to say they can’t??? No law was broken, the guns weren’t on school grounds and this has NOTHING to do with the shootings in Connecticut. I’m disappointed that the school shut this down, especially since reading it was a club and should have been allowed to hold whatever fundraiser they wanted. I think some of the girls need to talk to an attorney and find out if it was legal for Snow Canyon’s principal to shut it down. And Dorothy you’re starting to act more like the Wicked Witch than the sweet girl from Kansas.
To the woman that complained about the gun raffle she needs to grow up and get a life. the principal is just another liberal wanna be on the bandwagon and needs to be fired
Everyone is stupid! WHO CARES IF THEY HAD A GUN RAFFLE! Guns don’t kill people, Stupid people with guns kill people. Almost every person who is “anti-gun” is stupid. Learn your gun safe. Banning guns isn’t going to solve shootings. Gang members are going to hand over their guns, hunters aren’t going too, people waiting for the world to end aren’t either. Blaming the guns is like blaming the fork for making you fat. Or blaming your pencil for bad spelling. Stop being stupid, pull your head out of you butt, and open your eyes.
Perhaps Dorothy Engelman would feel more comfortable living in a city that has strict gun control laws such as Chicago. We all know that there is no crime there.
I would certainly volunteer to help her move there!
No crimes here? Who was that local St George home boy who recently killed his girlfriend, her daughter and then himself? Who were the locals involved in the shootings in that RV court near Leeds? How about that shoot out in downtown St George? A few armed bank robberies? That guy killed at the coin shop?
Won’t go into gun related suicides in St George.
Wow! Do you have short-term memory or live in denial?
So what if she was upset. They were not doing anything illegal. Why does she feel she can control what other people do who are living within the law? What a self righteous nanny.
I was at a fundraiser a few weeks ago that had a firearm as part of the money raising event. If I remember correctly, that one firearm raised almost $1,000 for the charity,
I would like more information on this story please. Is there anything in the league’s rules and guidelines that prohibit this? I would like to know what discipline will be applied and for what specific reason? While Engelman feels she did not make an “error in judgment”, why was her one complaint enough to pull the gun raffle? Were rules broken or not? While she is to blame for starting this incident, who is to blame for listening to her? If rules were broken, then this was fair. If not, the school or whoever pulled the raffle is equally to blame.
Her one complaint was powerful enough to generate action, only because of her standing in the party of the leftists. Which, also happens to be the party that most educators are affiliated with.
Why are they being disciplined? It sounds like they weren’t breaking any rules or laws. This is ridiculous, what are we teaching? How to keep ones head down and conform? I guess this is southern Utah where we frequently eat non-conformists for breakfast.
Dorothy is just being a good soldier for her party, since she is the local chairman or something like that, and spreading the national media mantra to the local folks. Also, wasn’t this an off school grounds event held by parents and boosters of the team in order to help get them across the country for an tournament? Even though the team is affiliated with a local HS, the event was just trying to raise money on private property I believe. I’m actually more afraid for my life and my freedoms from people like Dorothy than anybody who donated money for an opportunity to legally obtain a firearm.
There are some really bizarre comments on this story! (Check out the mini-novel from William). A children’s sports team raffling off weapons shows the same sensitivity as raffling off subscriptions to Hustler magazine or a case of Jack Daniels whiskey. The people who concocted this, (the parents?), ought to be embarrassed but they’re probably not…and seeing some of the crazy opinions on this page, it looks like there’s a bunch more just like them here in Utah. Thank goodness for Ms. Engelman! I hope she was just the first person to be outraged and that if she wouldn’t have put a stop to it, someone else would have!
Yep, some of them are bizarre. But then the whole situation is kind of bizarre, isn’t it? Oh, one question, what is your relationship to Mizz Engelman?
Blazo…he’s her husband. or Vice Chair of that bizarre “party”.
To Bozo and Drivel Tap, Shouldn’t you and the other tweenie kids making comments on this site be in class? This is a school day you know.
Thanks for reading Steamer: Sorry you did not understand my point. better luck next time.
The actions by Principal Brooks was something he “had” to do because of his position. The Wash Co school district is becoming very involved with Common Core for this area. By accepting this program, tons of federal money is funneled to the district. Common Core is also funded by Bill Gates who’s software and programs will mine data from all the kids and their families. Look it up. Of course strings are always attached when given federal money. He had no other choice but to behave in the manner he did. Forget common sense or critical thinking. With Federal money comes marching orders on how to behave. Minor incidents like this with the schools will only result in more ridiculous behaviors as time goes on.
Gunther: This is where you miss the point about freedom and liberty. NO, absolutely not. He did not have to do anything. He weighed the consequences and made a decision, a choice. He chose to place control over others ahead of the principle of liberty. He is free to do that. However, he was motivated by fear or a desire to exercise control over others. I do not believe the principal was motivated by the principle or liberty.
better she shoulda complained about the cupcakes–those suckers will kill you…..
She probably would have if the raffle hadn’t been there. She exemplifies the busybody more concerned that someone else might be enjoying life rather than going out and enjoying it for herself.
It may be wrong to assume that Ms. Engelman would be supportive of females enjoying participating in a male dominated sport, but let’s assume it anyway.
This club could have gone the route of car wash in skimpy outfits to raise money. Instead, they used their brains, analyzed their market and found someone willing to donate a great raffle prize, guaranteed to increase the amount of funds raised.
What is Ms. Engelman willing to do to replace this fund raising activity with something equally as effective? My guess is nothing. She appears to have more interest in being outraged by an idea than to solving an actual community problem.
My guess is as they organized this fundraiser, they asked for donations of items from local businesses and parents that they could raffle off. When someone donated the guns I’m sure they were excited, as the guns are valuable property and they could charge a high price for the raffle tickets. I doubt the girls and their parents were tying to make a point or ruffle anyone’s feathers, they were just trying to raise some money. It is a shame that the fundraiser was shut down – they were doing nothing wrong. I wonder if Ms. Engelman tried to calmly talk to and understand any of the people at the fundraiser before throwing them under the bus.
Also, where is the picture of the guns on display? All I see is a poster.
Dear Dorothy Engelman- REALLY????????? GUNS DONT KILL PEOPLE- Find something else to cause issue with
Uh . . . guns don’t kill people?? I’ve heard that over and over again from people like you, and I’m sorry, but I read about a great many deaths caused by guns. Guns DO kill people. Take a minute, and look up the stats. And then stop trying to use “cute” wordplay in place of good sense.
I am going to have to agree with this statement ..
.This is ridiculous!! I see no problem at all with a gun raffle. I agree with a few past posters. GUNS DO NOT KILL PEOPLE. BAD/STUPID PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE. Good heavens… if you blame guns for deaths you must also now include forks, CARS, knifes, pressure cookers, salt, greasy fast food chains, crowbars, fires, etc… To ban a gun from being raffled off is absurd. These girls just want to go to nationals and if someone was willing to donate a gun for the event then that is the kind of AWESOME support that these girls need! If I read correctly the gun was NEVER on the schools premises. If that is so, I don’t believe they broke any laws and therefore they do not need to be disciplined. This shouldn’t have been an issue. BTW I GOT YOUR CUTE RIGHT HERE RON!!!!!!
Didn’t that St George guy with guns kill his girlfriend, her daughter and himself with a gun?
Wow, I guess we can tell where our youth are learning their “bullying” techniques by reading what their parents are saying on social media. If we don’t want our children to bully maybe we should set an example. Open a dialogue about guns, but don’t bully someone who has a differing opinion. Please set a good example for our children and STOP the hate!
Actually Engelman set the example. She deemed it her responsibility to “bully” the students and the school into shutting down the fundraiser. Imagine that…one bully has that influence. Maybe everyone in support of the students fundraiser should got to the Washington County Democratic office and “bully” them there. I for one am offended by Engelman’s bullying of the rugby players and the school administrator. Who is Engelman to engaged in “correcting” what she deems “an error in juidgement” and “insensitive”? I find her to be “insensitive”….so does that give me the right to bully her?
Annette, the true “bully” here is my relative, Dorothy Engelman. She is the most self centered, egotistical person I have ever met. And she was certainly the bully in this entire situation. She obviously gets her jollies by showing off her power. Making other people miserable is just an added ego booster for her..
Mr. Doozer, are you seriously suggesting any Democrat has any power in this town?
These comments are truly disturbing. Mob mentality and pure hatred. Once again, Southwestern Utah shows its true colors. Once again, the lesson is don’t you DARE even mention you might not agree with the majority in this town. Because people with opposing opinions don’t have 1st Amendment rights here I guess.
Disgusting.
Right on. All Ms. Engelman did was express her concern. Isn’t that her right? She didn’t force anybody to do anything. But thank goodness, Brooks saw the light and put a stop to this stupidity.
This lady should give these kids the money they need to go to that competition. A gun raffle is NOT illegal. Taking offense in this matter is nothing more than HER opinion. She has NO right to have it shut down. I could understand shutting it down if there were several complaints and it was obviously getting to a lot of people upset. Since she was apparently the only one to complain, this was obviously not the case. So she needs to back off and mind her own business. She is free to voice her concern, then walk away. This is part of the problem with society today. We keep backing down to people like this. The minority who continue to force their opinions down our throats. Despite the fact that the vast majority of people consider them to be inconsequential, or just flat wrong.
There should be absolutely NO actions taken against this team, coaches or anyone involved. They did nothing wrong.
This witch should be the one to have to answer for her crime in now setting back this group of kids from their goal. Without this money, they can’t go. Her actions are punishing them, when they have done nothing wrong.
A gun raffle certainly IS illegal, because ALL raffles are illegal in the State of Utah. Usually the authorities look the other way for such fundraisers, but they are prohibited by our state constitution, and it would take a constitutional amendment to change that.
When is Dorothy Engelman going to chime in on her bullying? She must be saving it up for her column in the Spectrum. She is such an attention wh—- that she just loves being in the limelight. She must be so proud of her actions, that she showed them girls. She claims to be affiliated with the party of tolerance and this is what she does! Come on Dorothy…speak up. We know you read this forum as you have commented in the past on other stories. How do you even have the gall to show up in public after what you have caused this girls team? Shame on you. And Mr. Doozer….you have my condolences and sympathy.
I have to chuckle when the conservatives get all excited about Engelman supposedly bullying and butting into other people’s business, yet they stand and applaud when Gayle Ruzicka does the exact same crap. Both libs and cons are pathetic hypocrites!!!!
This ought not to be about Dorothy. She rightfully expressed her views as she believed them. She has the same rights as all the rest of us. The fact that there may be a frequency of her opinions should not deprive her of that right of expression. Disagreeing with her politically or personally does not justify attacking her personally. Attack and disagree with her premise, call into question the reasoning. But take courage in the fact that she is willing to stand for what she believes, and is an example to others to do the same.
She didn’t just express her concern and views, she made countless phone calls, including to the SLC Tribune. Of course the Trib jumped all over this story and the chance to jab at the 2nd amendment believers in STG. That article has about 250 comments right now. However, very few support Dottie. Also, the local comments on this site are more important. And again, very few support the whistle blower.
Actually, it seems to me that she is the one who made it about her. When she made all the media contacts, is when she made it about her. So let her deal with it.
Of course she has a right to her opinion, and to voice that opinion in any manner that is legal. She also has a right to catch the fall out from it.
I recently attended a little league football pizza party/raffle at a high school in cedar for 8-10yr olds whom represent that school and they were giving away several guns through the raffle and didn’t have any issues, so come on sg and pull it together!! They also raffled a set of tires that could’ve been put on a car that was drivin by someone texting while driving or DUI.. Every party has a pooper and I think we all know who shat here!!
Vcllist, please stop spreading lies. Raffles are illegal in most every state where gambling is illegal. BUT raffles are legal as long as a ticket can be given at no charge.
You are correct that for something small like a rugby team, no one is really checking their “free ticket” policy but I guarantee the big businesses know and follow the rule.
If u don’t support the raffle then don’t buy a ticket!! Don’t ruin the teams chance of going to a national tourney! Oh, bell just rang and recess is over so gotta go.. Doh!
Oh and it’s also illegal in Utah to solicit funds without being registered with the Utah Division of Consumer Protection – especially if this club is independent of Snow Canyon High School and the PTA (which are registered). Yes I know it’s high school students, but the law is the law, and we must teach them to be good citizens. I say lock them all up for breaking the law – just like the State would do to any other Joe they want to lock up…
I’m pretty sure that the poor girls in this rugby team didn’t wake up that morning and think to themselves “I wonder what Dorothy Engelman will think about our attempts to raise money so we can try to go on an exciting trip…” And I’m pretty sure, we shouldn’t live in a world where Ms. Engelman’s intolerance has the ability to curb these girls’ ability to raise funds to go on said trip. It’s a wide, vast world Ms. Engelman and just because someone does something you disagree with, doesn’t mean you should stomp your feet, throw a tantrum and get them to change. You need to respect other people’s liberty a little more than you do.
Also, obesity (including child obesity) is killing more Americans by far than firearms. So the truly “insensitive” thing they were selling that day were the frosted delicious killers (cupcakes). Lighten up. Leave others free to live their lives.
Being that it is an all female rugby team, maybe Ms. Engelman would have preferred that a lifetime membership to Planned Parenthood be raffled off instead. As her FB page does list PP as one of her favorite “likes”.
I support the Lady Warriors and all female athletes everywhere. What I don’t support is violence against another. You can say what you want “Guns don’t kill people” but, they do. There are better ways to raise money and it’s been done for years without the use of firearms. I can promise you had Snow Canyon HS been involved in a mass shooting like Sandy Hook the idea of raffling a shot gun or any weapon would become a disgusting thought one which would outrage the community. Do we need to wait for this to happen before we realize guns don’t belong in our schools? Where is the ‘Fun’ in Fundraising when we’re auctioning weapons for our youth?
If “guns kill people”; then all of mine must be seriously defective!! You ignorant person. What they were auctioning is a bolt-action hunting rifle.
Good point Chuck! We need our guns for hunting because meat is so expensive in the stores and a side of beef is a necessary staple for 1 in 4 obese people living in Utah. We gotta have our RED MEAT because it’s our constitutional right to have clogged arteries, surgical stents and open heart surgery to be a true blue American. Guns, Butter and God.
There are thousands of guns in this community almost all exclusively used in non-violent ways and nothing about this raffle is inherently promoting violence! I challenge you to compare the money raised per cupcake against raffle ticket, the raffle ticket will almost certainly be a better way to raise money. Also, I hate to break the news to you, but gun raffles have been going on for years as a method of raising money for charitable causes.
The FACT is that, by God’s grace, we haven’t had a Sandy Hook incident and it is disgusting to me that people are exploiting a madman’s actions to control their communities for whatever their personal or political motivations may be. Do you really suppose that suppressing this raffle is going to prevent a mentally unstable individual from shooting up a school? If you do, I’m sorry, but you’re a fool.
Finally, THERE WAS NO GUN IN THE SCHOOL and nowhere did I read anyone advocating that guns belong in schools.
This is ridiculous!! I see no problem at all with a gun raffle. I agree with a few past posters. GUNS DO NOT KILL PEOPLE. BAD/STUPID PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE. Good heavens… if you blame guns for deaths you must also now include forks, CARS, knifes, pressure cookers, salt, greasy fast food chains, crowbars, fires, etc… To ban a gun from being raffled off is absurd. These girls just want to go to nationals and if someone was willing to donate a gun for the event then that is the kind of AWESOME support that these girls need! If I read correctly the gun was NEVER on the schools premises. If that is so, I don’t believe they broke any laws and therefore they do not need to be disciplined. This shouldn’t have been an issue.
I’m from Virginia and this pissed me off enough that I will be sending the Snowy Canyon Lady Warriors Rugby Team a check for the price of a raffle ticket.
Did you know Utahans can give millions of dollars to a political campaign in another state? But why can’t they afford to send their kids to a competition? Personally, I won’t contribute one cent to them, because too many people around Snow Canyon treat others terribly… just ask anyone outside their little cliques.
Well, you just seem like a very petty, small person.
In southern Utah, females seem to be treated like second class compared to males. Almost every church ward has a boy scout troop, but in the entire county, perhaps there is one girl scout troop. Boys get huge support for their sports endeavors. Girls don’t. That’s why they are having so much trouble raising funds. They are girls.
I agree Didja.
Okay, so you believe that we females are treated like second class citizens and therefore, don’t receive the same sort of financial support for our athletic endeavors. You have made a decision to NOT support them as some sort of principled protest AGAINST their unfair treatment. That is some really twisted logic to justify not spending your own money, but telling others how they should spend theirs.
I chose to not support them because I think they are in the cliquish Snow Canyon community, which has shown me in the past I was not welcome in some of their area’s activities. So I certainly am not going to give financial support to them.
This is just plain wrong. it’s not like they are doing anything illegal. This shows just how dumboKrats HATE anyone who does not walk lockstep with their liberal beliefs. It’s a hunting rifle, for crying out loud!!
I bet you Dorothy Engelman would support the raffle if it was a coupon for a free abortion or a pound of pot!
St George is a such hick town. Ought to call it Redneck Haven.
Guns. Spouse abuse. Drug abuse. Suicides. These are the things that also define St George.
Please note the man in the picture accompanying this story. He is wearing a cap with the BYU “Y” on it. Because he is there, customer, contributor, or sponsor he obviously is advocating the slaughter of children. How so? Because there was a gun raffle going on. What other conclusion could rationally be reached about his motivation?
Now, wearing that cap is a great “tell”. He is either LDS or one who supports the “honor code” of the Church’s university. The only lobical conclusion that can be drawn from those facts is that he represents all BYU and former BYU students in a desire to slaughter children (argument developed above).
Now, it can be presumed that a substantial number of BYU alumni are still members of the Church, having avoided excommunication. Hence, again a logical conclusion is that the entire LDS Church leadership supports the slaughter of children (argument established above). Therefore the Proclamation on the Family must be flawed.
When you take my discourse above to any rational conclusion you immediately realize it is absurd on it’s face. Likewise the argument that raffling a gun promotes gun violence, suicide, and that it sends a bad massage etc. rises to the same level of ridicule. Far too often, in today’s society, people fashion their own conclusions and then presume their limited perspective MUST exist in the mind of everyone else.
This event was fund raiser to support a team going to a national event. Nothing more. It should have been taken at face value and supported or not. Nothing more.
Two weeks ago at the Bloomington Walmart a girls basketball team was raising money to attend a national competition out of state. Fool that I am I bought a snowcone to support their fiendish activity. If I had only been wiser I would have seen that what they were actually doing was making a political statement about “Global Warming”, by selling snowcones. I am so ashamed.
Hi again. Please forgive me for misrepresenting the fact that the incident I mentioned in my previous post actually happened at Desert Hills High School and for the use of the term “air gun” to describe a real gun loaded with blanks. In my high school we were fine with removing the orange caps from fake “pop” guns we bought in the supermarket toy isle when we did plays. My point was that a high school kid was dumb enough to put a gun to his head and pull the trigger. In case some of you didn’t understand why Dorothy and i are upset, I will lay it out for you. I sincerely hope that some of you Republicants have enough brain power to understand simple English. Here is is:
THESE WERE HIGH SCHOOL KIDS RAFFLING OFF (SELLING) SHOTGUNS AND RIFLES PLACED ON A TABLE OUT IN THE OPEN NEXT TO BAKED GOODS!
In case you Republicants didn’t know, Shotguns and Rifles are not what normal, intelligent parents decide to let their kids raffle off for a high school fundraiser. I can’t believe that this was parent organized. Then again, that’s Utah for you. Have a nice day. 🙂
Again, there is absolutely nothing wrong with selling, possessing, or displaying guns of any kind in public regardless of whatever the age of people are around them. It is only because of people such as yourselves who try and elevate a harmless situation into a end of the world event. It is a very sad event when a sick evil person decides to end the lives of others with the method of their choice. Lets not persecute the inanimate object for which they choose to inflict death with. They are the ones who are sick, not the object. Normal law abiding folks find nothing wrong with the event which is drawing all this attention. I hope people who love hunting and shooting sports step up and send this team to the tournament and that the team has more fun than they could ever stand to have.
When did i ever say that Guns kill people by themselves? Truth be told, If the guns had been locked up in a case or safe that was continuously monitored by a trained adult, I would have no problem with it but they weren’t so I’m speaking up. Excuse me for caring enough about your kids and the children of others to not want to risk a repeat of what happened at Desert Hills. Oh but it won’t happen to your child? He or she is too smart? He or she knows better? I bet that the parents of that kid at Desert Hills thought the same thing right up until he did what he did. I don’t know if you were involved in the planning of this event but just so you know, I don’t believe that a “normal parent” knowingly allows a bunch of unmonitored high school kids to raffle off large caliber weapons placed on a table in the open. Not because I believe that the guns will magically get up and kill them but because of the fact that one of the kids might might have a “momentary lack of judgement” and end up dead..If you still think that I’m trying to “elevate a harmless situation into a end of the world event” , Good because Desert Hills may only be one isolated incident but that’s still one to many.
Actually you have to be an adult to legally purchase or sell a firearm. That’s been a law long before Obama.
Funny thing is, if this was a boys team, there would be all types of support and money pouring in to send the boys to yet another sport event. Girls don’t matter in this town; they’re supposed to serve men and plan on having lots of babies. The attitude to females in southern Utah is pathetic, complete inequality when compared to their male counterpart. You know that’s true.
I do have more than enough “brains” to understand why you’re upset. But do you have enough “brains” to understand that there are normal, intelligent parents who are not afraid to teach their children that guns are not evil, but tools to be treated with respect. We don’t hide the very fact that guns exist. Instead, we teach them from a young age the proper way to deal with a weapon. I knew that if my child should ever encounter a weapon in a friend’s home or anywhere else for that matter, they would know immediately the danger it could represent and immediately report the encounter with an adult and even prevent any other child from touching the weapon.
Do you have enough “brains” to realize that the hysteria over weapons is actually a relatively new phenomena? I’m not that old, and I remember teenage boys coming to school with hunting rifles in their trucks and no one got their panties in a bunch. We are so intent on “protecting” our children, that we don’t teach them how to protect themselves.
The political party you identify with advocates public school sex education and even free contraceptives for teenagers with the belief that education will lead them to make better choices for their safety and health. Wouldn’t it be consistent to educate our youth about firearms instead of trying to pretend we don’t need to have that discussion?
Finally, I’ve lived all over the United States and everywhere has their own unique culture. It doesn’t make them backwards or abnormal, it just makes them different. I take extreme offense to your snide remark “that’s Utah for you”. In fact, I don’t think you have enough brain power to grasp the concept that those who don’t have your point of view can be just as intelligent and thoughtful as you seem to think you are.
I’ve lived all over the United States and in other countries. I am a veteran of the Iraq war and yes I am well aware that the hysteria about guns is a relatively new phenomena due at least in part to the recent shootings that have occurred here in the U.S. My father was police officer and i grew up in a small town where the school district went as far as too give kids an extra week break during the school year for the opening of hunting season. My parents taught me the same thing you say you are teaching your kids and i will do the same for mine. I’m a gun owner and fully back people’s constitutional right to bear arms.
As I have continually expressed, my problem was that the guns were left out in the open with no trained adult providing continual supervision. As i said, if a trained adult, say a representative from Savage Arms, had been there to monitor them, I would have no problem but that was not the case.
Yes people can be as intelligent as i am but hold differing beliefs, I am not denying that. However, I do believe that if the people on the committee that decided to hold the raffle had even a ounce of common sense they would have done one of two things:
1.) Lock the guns up and see that a representative from Savage Arms, the law enforcement community or someone with verifiable training in the handling of firearms was on site at all times or;
2.) Decide not to raffle the guns at all.
Are you in possession of some special knowledge not contained in the article? I couldn’t find anywhere in the article that there wasn’t a qualified indiividual present to supervise the guns. I also must have missed the section of the article that talked about the ammunition that was readily available to load into the guns.
You said the key words “Normal Parents”. Just as a normal parent would not let a kid take a real gun to school.
Why is it any of your … business if I decide it’s okay for my kid to sell a raffle ticket??!! If you don’t want to buy a ticket, feel free to exercise your right to not buy it. Keep your sense of outrage away from my rights and responsibilities as a parent. If you don’t think I’m acting responsibly, tough, learn to live with it. She certainly isn’t selling a gun to another child. Nor is this gun likely to end up as a prop in a play or whatever other unlikely scenario you keep yourself awake worrying about.
Do you have enough brain power to understand mind your own business and I’ll mind mine? And yes, MY kid, MY business.
Also, don’t try and define what is normal or intelligent in parenting. I have a college degree, am not of the local predominant faith, and am raising children who are exceptionally bright and well-regarded by their peers and adults. They can converse with you on the merits of Locke while disassembling and cleaning any number of firearms. I happen to think that I am raising exceptional citizens, but by your definition, I am neither normal, nor intelligent. Perhaps you would wish that I were raising sheep instead of leaders.
Ed. ellipsis
NEXT TO BAKED GOODS, OMG CALL THE NATIONAL GUARD!! What’s next, selling guns next to FRESH FRUIT? Arrest them all!!!!!
My only comment is, “Dang! I missed a raffle for a gun!” If they are able to somehow re-open the raffle I’ll take 2 tickets and a plate of cupcakes please.
If anyone one of you who show support for the best girls Rugby Team and their wonderful coaches would like to donate to help them go to the Wisconsin Invitational, please contact one of the coaches or team mates. I’m sure it would be much appreciated.
Dangit, I wish we’d thought of that for our own communities Rugby team fundraiser! Our son’s team is set to travel back up to SLC this month, again, at an expense of over $1000 to the team and parents. It’s expensive, costing about $200 to play initially (which keeps a lot of kids out of sports), plus the travel expenses.
This is a rural community and gun giveaways are nothing new. I can think of a local restaurant which raffled one, for no cause other than profit, and stores which have raffled them away as door prizes. Of course background checks are in play. Of course they are…the rules still apply.
I’d love to know if this attention monger has ever donated a dime to youth sports, bought a girl scout cookie or volunteered at a school. We made CNN for heck sakes…nice one lady.
Why don’t the bishops pressure the church people to donate just as they were said to pressure the church sheep to donate to Proposition 8?
You ALL (well mostly) are missing another point; there IS law on solicitation of funds of ANY kind in Utah. Time for civics lesson 101 kids: (http://le.utah.gov/UtahCode/section.jsp?code=13-22
http://www.rules.utah.gov/publicat/code/r152/r152-22.htm)
What does this mean? This means to be legally defined as charity you need to register your anonymous/or not anonymous organization with the State, file financial records and IRS forms, etc. OR ELSE you have violated the law and you can face penalties. If you don’t like this definition of charity (as I don’t) then I suggest you contact your State representatives and have them redefine charity as it should be – an individual right to do with ones’ rightfully earned money what one wishes to do with it – whether that be pay other taxes/fines/penalties, buy a gun, or have a bonfire.
13-22-4. Violation a misdemeanor — Damages.
(1) A person who willfully violates any provision of this chapter, either by failing to comply with any requirement or by doing any act prohibited in the chapter, is guilty of a class B misdemeanor. Each day the violation is committed or permitted to continue constitutes a separate punishable offense.
(2) Nothing in this section precludes any person damaged as a result of a charitable solicitation from maintaining a civil action for damages or injunctive relief.
(3) The division may maintain an action for damages or injunctive relief on behalf of itself or any other person to enforce compliance with this chapter.
For further information on definition of charity in Utah and the requirements for registering such solicitous groups, visit: http://consumerprotection.utah.gov/registrations/charities.html
A: Utah Code Annotated §13-22-8 sets forth a list of organizations that are exempt from the registration requirement. Any organization that claims an exemption based on this list is required to apply to the Division for that status. The organization has the burden of proving its eligibility for, or the applicability of, the exemption claimed. Please note that the exempt status applies only to the registration requirement. Exempt organizations remain subject to all other provisions of the Charitable Solicitations Act.
My understanding is that this Rugby team is NOT sanctioned by Snow Canyon High School so Utah Code Annotated §13-22-8 (g) [any school accredited by the state, any accredited institution of higher learning, or club or parent, teacher, or student organization within and authorized by the school in support of the operations or extracurricular activities of the school;] does not apply. I am not a lawyer but words mean things and that is what these words tell me.
Nothing on the donation page of the website for this club, (http://scwarriorgirlsrugby.com/teams/default.asp?u=SCGIRLSRUGBY&t=c&s=htosports&p=custom&pagename=Donate+to+SC+Girls+Rugby) identifies it as sanctioned through the public school system – it only states that the girls on the team are from the Snow Canyon High/Middle School zones. So as I understand they should appear as an exempt organization IF they have applied with the State of Utah Consumer Protection Division; searching at: http://consumerprotection.utah.gov/consumerinfo/lists.html for ‘Entity Name’ [contains] “snow canyon” you will find only two organizations (the high/middle school ptas). This means that the PTAS are sponsoring/funding the rugby team and donations should be written to those organizations OR ‘Snow Canyon Warriors Girls Rugby” has not registered with the Utah Consumer Protections Division. Either way it should be clear to donors the correct organization name and filing status of that organization when soliciting funds.
Short summation: Charity is defined by the State of Utah (and most other States in similar manners) there is no individual legal definition of charity (at least not that I am aware of). If you want to ask for funds or donate funds check with the State first – after all this is America “…the land of the free and the home of the brave.” Have a nice day Utah! 🙂
My question: Why does the State have laws that they apply only when they feel it is advantageous to the State? The law is blind and should treat each entity as it treats any other. My contention here is that it actually IS blind, or turns a blind eye at some things, and opens its eye(s) when it ‘wants to teach a lesson’. If I understand this law correctly, anyone, including Doug Wright of KSLradio who encouraged his listeners, should be charged with a Class B misdemeanor for the soliciting of funds for this Rugby team illegally. Can anyone enlighten me as to my incorrect understanding of this law?
Why should we be concerned about ObamaCare, gun control, etc. – when in our own Utah State Constitution, city codes, courts, etc. there exists a usurpation of individual rights (property, parental rights, water, etc.)? Utah is the shining city on the hill – it must be a mighty small hill that it sits atop …
May I use the language of our beloved Vice President Biden to express my frustration – this law (Utah Code: Title 13 Chapter 22) “…is a big f#@!$ing deal!”
well bonfire might not be good, check with local/state fire departments, etc. when evening thinking about starting a fire. But definitely if you want to DONATE money, check with the State …. after all they are protecting your money/investment.
DUDE! You are talking to yourself again! 😀
Registered makes a lot of sense with those posts which are the result of fact finding. So refreshing to see someone actually respond using the facts rather than the knee-jerk responses by most who probably can’t understand those facts presented them.
In December of 2012, twenty children and six teachers are killed by a guy with a semi-automatic weapon with high-capacity magazines. Utah’s response? The legislature passes a slew of bills out of fear that second amendment rights would somehow be “taken away”. The response by some misguided parents of a Southern Utah high school team? Take advantage of the flurry of interest in buying guns created by the aforementioned fear and have a gun raffle. Both are sickening.
In December of 2012, twenty children and six teachers are killed by a guy with a semi-automatic weapon with high-capacity magazines. What is the response of federal, state and local legislators, most media outlets and a slew of political pundits? It’s because of an inanimate weapon obtained illegally. No proposed law would have prevented his actions, but let’s push for it anyway. Utah responded to the hysteria and knee jerk reaction by moving to further strengthen second amendment rights.
Nothing misguided in taking advantage of an artificially inflated market to raise money for a good cause.
What is truly sickening is ignoring the mental health issues that are the root cause of the crime in order to take political advantage and steal our God given right to protect ourselves any way we see fit.
I’d like to end this discussion with the following:
1. My objection was that the raffle was being held by an organization sanctioned by a public school & I believe that it is not appropriate for public schools to raffle off guns.
2. No one was fired or disciplined as a result of the raffle, the only thing that happened was that the raffle was cancelled.
3. The School District appreciated of the “heads up” as it does not allow raffles.
4. I have sent a donation to the team; and my guess is they ended up raising more money, not less, as a result of the the publicity.
5. I support the US Constitution, which includes the 1st Amendment (freedom of speech) – which I exercised, and the 2nd Amendment (right to bear arms.)
6. The personal attacks were a great surprise as I prefer a civil exchange rather than name calling and rash statements.
7. Now let’s move on to current topics. Thank you.
Very interesting comments, sounds like they came right from the Democratic playbook. The only thing missing would be Jay Carney or Hillary to put some extra spin on it and make all of your naysayers feel guilty and wrong for expressing “our” 1st Amendment rights and opinions. Your strong belief in your party’s agenda is too overpowering to understand those of us who understand what our rights and freedoms truly mean. Also, how did the SLC Tribune get this story so fast? did they just stumble on it by driving by last Saturday? Did the school district give the Trib a “heads up” because they thought they needed this story. No, we understand what happened here and it was not an innocent act of a concerned citizen. Many phone calls were made in order to create a media frenzy to fulfill the marching orders from your political party. You tried to control this situation and now it’s control you want to end it. Also, Dems don’t want gun control for the safety of others, it’s all about “Control” of our lives. It’s an evil agenda they are working on that’s for sure.
“Southern Sunshine” as a user name for the Trib? Really? No sunshine is being spread that I can see. Just clouds, wind and lightning strikes.
What an absolutely arrogant post Dorothy has made here. It would appear to be typical though. Of course she got what she wanted, two fold. 1) She got her name in front of the media, again. 2) She was able to throw her weight around.
Way to go Dorothy. It WILL come back and bite you in the rear some day.
1. I think it has been made abundantly clear that Snow Canyon Warriors Girls Rugby is NOT officially sanctioned by Snow Canyon Public Schools but is an independent club using the same name because the players come from that school zone.
2. Is that the only thing that should have happened?
3. Searching Washington School District Policy (http://www.washk12.org/district-policy) for ‘raffle’ turns up nothing – searching for ‘gambling’ brings up the applicable Policy 3600 Distribution and Posting of Promotional Materials (http://www.washk12.org/policywiki/index.php?page=3600-distribution-and-posting-of-promotional-materials). Read for yourself if interested.
4.I guess the team could comment on whether they have raised more or less – but they still are doing so illegally and unregistered with the Division of Consumer Protection (although interestingly today you will find neither Snow Canyon Middle/High School PTA) and only one ‘Snow Canyon’ result.
5. Apparently you didn’t uphold the Utah State Constitution which informs us that this fundraising was done illegally.
6. I think everyone prefers civil – but perhaps not all prefer legal?
7. Oh, the topic is still ‘current’ …
Dorthy: I understand that you want this to end. That is not surprising. But, please answer one more question.
Why is it that you believe that you have a right to have control over other people?
You see, your complaint did not simply express your discontent. You were, in fact, seeking to have your will enforced over others. First, you did it by seeking to have the school district control the fund raiser. Now, with your comments “I’d like to end this discussion…” and “Now let’s move on to current topics” make it rather clear that you believe that you have a right to control over what other people discuss…simply because you started the discussion.
Why is it that you believe that you have a right to have control over other people?
Now, you can choose to pretend to ignore my question, even though you will be seething in the background, or, you can acknowledge my question and try to answer the exact question. If you choose to not answer my question you will be demonstrating that you can’t answer it or that you are afraid to answer it.
The reason I phrased that last sentence the way in which I did was to demonstrate to you, and others, what it means to exercise unwarranted control over people. You see by me define your responsiveness or non-responsiveness I am exercising control over you, precisely what you have sought to do to others.
As to your other assertions about supporting the Constitution you are either misrepresenting your stance or you misunderstand the Constitution. You have sought to both have the government infringe the right to bear arms, and you have likewise sought to deprive people of their right of expression. Those two efforts on your part are violations of both the 1st and 2nd Amendments which you assert you support.
Why is it that you believe that you have a right to have control over other people?
Dorothy Engelman simply CANNOT control herself.
There’s an old saying that “once you cross the state line into Utah, you have to turn back your clocks to 1886″… This whole issue is really only about the terrified conservatives who fear liberal thoughts and ideas as they cower behind their guns and self-defined constitutional rights. A powerful, articulate Democrat is a scary thing here in Utah, only made worse by the fact that it’s a woman! The gun raffle should have never happened. It was brought to a just end by the principal and school superintendent, not the lady Democrat that you’re all demonizing. And William, I still can’t get all the way through your posts without getting drowsy.
I would much prefer the 1886 definition of charity than todays!
I’d bet the TRUTH is that MOST of the residents SUPPORTED this effort which shows personal initiative and motivation but some bleeding heart found a sympathetic media type to blow this story out of proportion.
If you don’t like the raffle, the answer is simple – DON”T BUY ONE. And DON’T tell us what to do!
So let me get this straight… Some parents organized a donated shotgun and rifle to be raffled off, it was not done on school grounds, no one was hurt or injured, and the winner was to pick them up from the gun shop that donated them (after the normal background check, I’m sure). Sounds like no rules or laws were broken. Why the commotion? Simply because guns are bad? What about all of us sportsmen and sportswomen who safely use guns every weekend in pursuit of happiness? Are we evil, too? Are we not allowed to teach our children how to hunt or how to shoot in matches? Mrs. Engleman, I must kindly ask you to mind your own business! There are many things worth worrying about, and this isn’t one of them!
How would they know if it was a responsible person getting the gun or some nut job? Just asking.